Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw

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Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw Empty Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw

Post  PoWdA on Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:25 pm

Before the First Draw

Like most poker games one of the single biggest decisions you make is wether to play the hand at all. In Triple Draw I see many players playing hands that never should have made it past the first draw. Here are a few guidlines for starting hands in TD. If some of these seem pretty in-line with Daniel Negraneus section in SS2 there is good reason for it; he is right. For now I will concentrate on common situations and concepts such as what good 1 and 2 card draws look like, the importance of the deuce and the danger of the 6, and what not to play before the first draw. I will also cover how to bet before the first draw and discuss why we bet before the first draw.


Types of Hands


The types of hands you will play depend on your hand, the cards you are going to discard, your opponents, and of very high importance your position. The hand types I am going to cover here are premium 2 card 7 and 8 draws, and the super premium 1 card draws. Pat hands play themselves but I still included a few lines on them.

The All Powerfull 2

Here is the point of the following paragraph: don't play without a deuce! Engrave that on your brain and don't forget it. The 2 is the most powerful card in the game. Without a 2 you cannot make a 7. Without a 2 any other marginally playable hand now most likely has a straight draw. The importance of the deuce cannot be stressed enough. As far as this article is concerned you should never ever see the first draw without one unless you are in the big blind and it is checked to you. The next time you are thinking about playing that multi-way pot without a 2 just ask youself how many of your opponents are in the pot with a 2 then remind yourself how many are left in the deck. You are rarely going to draw one as everyone else in the pot probobly has them all! Even if there is one left then there can only be one left. The truth is even bad players understand the concept and most likley have a 2 in thier hand. Just don't leave home without one, heed this advice, and save yourself a lot of headaches down the road.

The Danger of the Six

This isn't as crucial as the 2 but does deserve a mention. The 6 is a dangerous card in the false sense of strength it represents when in reality this seemingly harmless card can get you into trouble. Why the six? Well lets take a great 2 card draw only replace a wheel card witha 6. Here we have 237 vs 236. Now lts say you draw one and it is a 5 for both hands. Well look at your outs now. While the 237 is now a 2357 the 236 is now 2356. Do you se the problem? While a 2357 has 8 outs twice to make a 7 (the 4 and the 6) the 2345 only has four as any 4 will only make a straight. Don't underestimate the danger of the 6. The straight potential realized when holding a 6 is a big factor to consider when playing a hand. You will encounter problems with 6's down the road. There are definetly times to play them but make sure they are super premium and you are in position.

Pat Hands -Play them aggressivley. I like to consider any 8 a pat hand. So even a 25678 needs to be rammed and jammed before the first draw. One thing to remember is that while in most poker games you woud trap with the nuts in Triple Draw you need to bet them! Why? Well in Triple Draw, once you draw everyone now knows you are pat and will play accordingly! If you check you missed a bet and most likely will get little out of the pot. Bet and raise before the draw, not after!

1 Card 7 Draws - One card draws are great to have! The best 1 card draws need to be played agggressivley and pretty much play themselves. The 1 card draws I am discussing are the best ones to have. They are all hands containing both a 2 and a 7 and 2 cards in between so in order: 2347, 2357, 2367, 2457, 2467, and 2567. Now I did put them in order from strongest to weakest but it doesn't really matter, they all play the same. You are going to ram and jam these before the first draw, cap it 6 ways, you have a great hand if you are holding any of these.

1 Card 8 Draws - Now is when we get into hands that are a little more situational. The good 1 card 8 draws are very powerful hands. Not as powerful as the 1 card 7 draws but played right you can show major profits by playing 1 card 8 draws before the flop. Some good 1 card 8 draws are any hand containg a 2 and an 8 with a 3,4,5, or 6, in between. Notice I did not include the 7 here. the reasoning is that with a rough 87 draw you are really looking to come in second place at showdown and that is not our goal. You can play a rough 87 like an 872 but I prefer to play the 87 in position, soming for a raise and having a chance at just taking the blinds. I do not like the 87 from up front. You will see me discuss the 87 a lot. I tend to draw the line between good hand and dangerous hand at 87.

With a good 8 (anything 86 or better) I tend to raise from up front, and re-raise if someone raised in front of me (to lock out the SB or BB from calling). I don't like calling too much in TD so if there is a raise and a re-raise in front of me I will cap it with a one card 8 to try and get it at least three way for the first draw. My goal with almost any hand (barring a pat 7 before the first draw) is to elminate as many opponents as possible before the first draw if I decide to enter the pot.

One big thing to remember is that you play a 1 card 8 the same as you would play a 1 card 7. Very very aggressivley. One reason is to build the pot, another is to lower how many opponents are in the hand (increasing our chances of taking the pot), and another reason is deception. In all forms of poker many people get the idea that deception has to do with playing your hand differently every time. I beg to differ. I believe playing many hands the same way is the better path to deception and I think this is a perfect place to illustrate this. So if I have a 1 card 7 draw I am raising and re-raising before the first draw, now I do the same with a 1 card 8 draw. Lets say my opponent knows I play both the same way, look at the spot he is in. He is going to be pretty hard pressed to come back at me with a weak 8 when I could very well be playing a strong 7 the same way! On the contrary if he thinks I have a weak 8 and I really have a strong 1 card 7 then our deception has truly worked and we are going to (hopefully) win a larger pot now! So when playing a one card 8 before the first draw play it aggressivly. My goal in a TD hand is almost alway to get heads up at which point I can control the betting better and have a better idea of what my opponent is thinking and doing. It is harder to gauge your opponent multi-way so take charge of the hand, raise it up, and create profitable situations for yourself.


2 Card 7 Draws -The majority of the hands you will be playing are 2 card draws so I will try and go into more depth with them later but for now here are the best of the best 2 card draws. The 2 card 7 draws. All good 2 card draws contain one thing; a 2. Never play a hand without a deuce, starting without one is a major leak, just don't do it. Lets just say playing with a 2 in your hand at all times is a golden rule as stated earlier. A premium 2 card draw is going to contain 3 wheel cards like 237 or 234 (the 2 best 2 card draws) or 235 or 247. All of these are premium 2 card draws and should be raised and re-raised before the first draw. I almost never limp in TD! If your hand isn't good enough to raise with fold it! Your best 2 card draws are 234, 235, 237, 245, 247, 257, and 267. Notice I did not include 236, 246 or 256. Sure you can raise with these hands in late position with no callers but in an earlier position, get rid of the holding with a 6 in them (I do play 267 though as the straight potential is gone).

The 2 card 7 draws are your bread and butter. These are your most common good starting hands, and the ones you will play the most. How you play them will depend mainly on your position and what any opponents ahead of you did. Optimally you would like to be in position. OOP is a differnt story but you really don't play much differntly with one of these hands. From up front it is always best to open raise. I almost NEVER call before the draw in TD. You could almost say it is never right to call in TD but never say never. As far as 2 card 7 draws are concerned though you are always going to raise if you are the first into the pot. Even if you are in early position (or late) and there is a raise in front of you you should re-raise and get it heads up if at all possible.

As far as there being 2 raises in front of you then it becomes a judgement call. Obviously if your opponent is a new player you have never seen before who just went to the third draw with a full house and is wondering hy he lost and some player you know to cap it with a 349 pre draw you can go ahead and cap it. If the raisers are the tightest players who won't leave the gate with anything worse than a premium 1 card 7 draw you can quietly muck your hand. If it is somewhere in the middle this is one spot I might call if in position but if out of position I fold. While a premium 2 card 7 is a great starting hand there are still times we could be way behind with one.

One common exception to raising or re-raising is when you are in the blinds. Here it can be okay to call a pre-draw raiser as re-raising only serves tobuild a pot and we really have no idea where we stand. Anybody already in the pot is not going anywhere so why bet? We only build a bigger pot that we now have to play out of postition against one or more opponents. We are also re-opening the betting possibly costing us more bets if one of our opponents happens to already have a good pat hand and now here we are, out of position, not knowing where we stand. Like I said there are few exceptions to calling pre-draw and this is one of them. You just don't want to put too much money in the pot in these tough spots out of position.

2 card draws with a 6 are played with a little more care. I will open in ealry position with one but after I make that first raise how how I play the hand can change dramatically ranging from if I am re-raised pre draw to bricking the first draw. Just try to catch a 7 early or get out with these hands. Prefferably I would say only play a hand like 256 on or near the button for a raise and take the blinds. Even if you are called or raised you still have that position. The problem once again is that you may pick up a card that looks good but really only makes you a straight draw. Don't call a raise with this hand, muck it and save yourself from those times you make a straight on the river.

2 card 8 draws - My requirements for a good 2 card 8 draw are very similar to the 1 card 8 draw requirements but I do not like to play a 278. Just about any other 8 draw I consider highley playable in most situations but the 87 draw is where I tend to draw the line. I think the only time I play and 87 draw is when on the button with no limpers and I can bring it in for a raise in position. Short of that very scenario I put most 87 draws right into the muck. The best two card 8 draws can make a #5 or 23458 so 238, 248, 258 although I also consider 268 playable. As a matter of fact 268 is probobly the worst hand I will play before the draw willingly and often.

2 card 8 draws can be very profitable and you will be playing a lot of them as you learn the game a little better and are able to loosen up a bit. Very similar to playing a 1 card 8 draw I like to raise up front with an 86 but I will usually muck an 87. If I am first into the pot with any 86 or better I come in for a raise. If there is a raise in front of me I will re-raise, mainly to get it heads up.

If you are facing 2 raises again it is a judgement call as to wether you proceed or not. Here you may call if you were raised obviously but waht do you do when you have 2 raisers in front of you and you now have to call 2 bets cold? Well who bet? is there anyone behind you still to act? If I am on the button with a super premium 258 or better against some loose bad opponents I might venture a call but most of the time you can fold your hand and find a better spot to put your money in. If you are out of position this is a great time to fold, even from a blind if you are facing multiple bets. You don't want to be caught with one of these hands out of position.

Dangerous Hands

To put it short and sweet most hands you recieve in TD are not playable. That doesn't mean they are all dangerous as you are obviously not seeing the first draw with AAAAQ but some hands that can appear okay to play are really unplayable money pits that will dent your bankroll badly if you keep playing them. Often times you run into these types of "trouble hands" when it appears you have a 1 card draw but that 1 card is a deuce! Suppose you see a 1 card draw like 3457X. You might be tempted to limp in and play this hand for one bet. Don't! This is better to be placed in the muck especially in a multi-way pot. Notice only a 2 helps us? That is 4 outs times 3. It may sound good but you can count on anyone being in the pot with us to have a 2 and who knows who discarded one already!

Other hands I often see people playing are hands like 345xx. I understand you have 3 wheel cards again but you are voilating are golden rule again! Where is the 2? This is made even worse when I see players that are playing hands like 456. Now 2 rules are being violated. Do you know what they are? This hand has now seen the first draw with no 2 an with a 6! Now even if you pull that dream deuce out of the deck you still have a straight draw to dodge!

As you may have noticed many of the problem hands we encounter stem from violating our main golden rule. Don't leave the gate without that 2 in your hand! Also these trouble hands help demonstrate that we are not just starting with low cards and praying we end up with the lowest hand at the showdown but that we are playing right and starting with strong high in percentage hands. Leave playing those iffy pre draw hands up to your opponents!


So this is some very basic pre draw advice so if you ever feel lost you can look over this and get some idea of what you are doing. We learned that we don't play without a 2, to come in for a raise or don't come in at all, and what most of the better 1 and 2 card draws look like pre draw. We also learned that some hands may look okay but really are dangerous and give us a false sense of hop in our hand! We learned to play aggressive! We learned to bet to level the playing field as well as to build the pot. I realize many pre draw desicions are very situtaional and I cannot cover every scenario but these are some very common occurences. Good Luck! And I hope to have advice for playing the first draw up shortly.



Once again this is a very rough draft. I am going to go back and make changes to this here and there and correct mistakes I just thought I woudl get it where some people could see it for thier input. thank you!
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Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw Empty Re: Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw

Post  ak1971 on Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:30 pm

3.) cap the pot...(sorry Danny couldnt resist being a smartass)
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Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw Empty Re: Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw

Post  Mondogarage on Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:16 am

Fantastic article, Danny, thanks for the edumacation. Seriously. I've violated the deuce and six rules often enough to keep me no better than a breakeven 27TD player, and not really understanding why. Lesson learned.
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Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw Empty Re: Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw

Post  PoWdA on Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:56 pm

Mondogarage wrote:Fantastic article, Danny, thanks for the edumacation. Seriously. I've violated the deuce and six rules often enough to keep me no better than a breakeven 27TD player, and not really understanding why. Lesson learned.
Glad you took something from it! I really do enjoy reading hand histories from TD sessions as well. Post em if you got em!
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Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw Empty Re: Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw

Post  Mondogarage on Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:42 pm

Here's a fun one:

PokerStars Game #15358940631: Tournament #77735092, $5.00+$0.50 Triple Draw 2-7 Lowball Limit - Level IV (100/200) - 2008/02/17 - 19:40:54 (ET)
Table '77735092 1' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: gencs (2210 in chips)
Seat 2: J.H.W. (2040 in chips)
Seat 3: winkerk (1030 in chips)
Seat 4: Mondogarage (890 in chips)
Seat 6: B2audacious (2830 in chips)
Mondogarage: posts small blind 50
B2audacious: posts big blind 100
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to Mondogarage [7s 3s 9d 2d Qh]
gencs: folds
J.H.W.: calls 100
winkerk: folds
B2audacious said, "still a fever but less"
Mondogarage: raises 100 to 200
B2audacious: folds
J.H.W.: calls 100
*** FIRST DRAW ***
Mondogarage: discards 2 cards [9d Qh]
Dealt to Mondogarage [7s 3s 2d] [4d Ts]
J.H.W.: discards 1 card
Mondogarage: bets 100
J.H.W.: calls 100
*** SECOND DRAW ***
Mondogarage: discards 1 card [Ts]
Dealt to Mondogarage [7s 3s 2d 4d] [5d]
J.H.W.: stands pat
Mondogarage: bets 200
J.H.W.: calls 200
*** THIRD DRAW ***
Mondogarage: stands pat on [7s 3s 2d 4d 5d]
J.H.W.: stands pat
Mondogarage: bets 200
B2audacious said, "think she will be okay"
J.H.W.: calls 200
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Mondogarage: shows [7s 3s 4d 2d 5d] (Lo: 7,5,4,3,2)
J.H.W.: mucks hand
Mondogarage collected 1500 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1500 | Rake 0
Seat 1: gencs folded before the Draw (didn't bet)
Seat 2: J.H.W. mucked [8s 2c 4s 3c 7h]
Seat 3: winkerk (button) folded before the Draw (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Mondogarage (small blind) showed [7s 3s 4d 2d 5d] and won (1500) with Lo: 7,5,4,3,2
Seat 6: B2audacious (big blind) folded before the Draw
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Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw Empty Re: Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw

Post  PoWdA on Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:27 pm

PokerStars Game #15358940631: Tournament #77735092, $5.00+$0.50 Triple Draw 2-7 Lowball Limit - Level IV (100/200) - 2008/02/17 - 19:40:54 (ET)
Table '77735092 1' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: gencs (2210 in chips)
Seat 2: J.H.W. (2040 in chips)
Seat 3: winkerk (1030 in chips)
Seat 4: Mondogarage (890 in chips)
Seat 6: B2audacious (2830 in chips)
Mondogarage: posts small blind 50
B2audacious: posts big blind 100
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to Mondogarage [7s 3s 9d 2d Qh]
gencs: folds
J.H.W.: calls 100
winkerk: folds
B2audacious said, "still a fever but less"
Mondogarage: raises 100 to 200
B2audacious: folds
J.H.W.: calls 100
*** FIRST DRAW ***
Mondogarage: discards 2 cards [9d Qh]
Dealt to Mondogarage [7s 3s 2d] [4d Ts]
J.H.W.: discards 1 card
Mondogarage: bets 100
J.H.W.: calls 100
I don't know about the bet here. He isn't folding and he could be pat in which case he raises you and you lose another bet. I check call here.
*** SECOND DRAW ***
Mondogarage: discards 1 card [Ts]
Dealt to Mondogarage [7s 3s 2d 4d] [5d]
J.H.W.: stands pat
Mondogarage: bets 200
J.H.W.: calls 200
Very nice draw, you have the mortal nuts, but where is the check raise?!? This is the perfect spot for a check raise! He rapped pat and you drew a card. If he plays even partially correct triple draw he should be betting here and then you check raise!
*** THIRD DRAW ***
Mondogarage: stands pat on [7s 3s 2d 4d 5d]
J.H.W.: stands pat
Mondogarage: bets 200
B2audacious said, "think she will be okay"
J.H.W.: calls 200
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Mondogarage: shows [7s 3s 4d 2d 5d] (Lo: 7,5,4,3,2)
J.H.W.: mucks hand
Mondogarage collected 1500 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1500 | Rake 0
Seat 1: gencs folded before the Draw (didn't bet)
Seat 2: J.H.W. mucked [8s 2c 4s 3c 7h]
Seat 3: winkerk (button) folded before the Draw (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Mondogarage (small blind) showed [7s 3s 4d 2d 5d] and won (1500) with Lo: 7,5,4,3,2
Seat 6: B2audacious (big blind) folded before the Draw

I think you drew good cards but your betting was a little ill timed. I think that if you let him bet the first draw for you and call he is a little more likely to bet the 2nd draw being ahead as well and then you can check raise! I don't like betting the first draw to much and as I said earlier it only opens you up to be re-raised when he draws good and you lose jsut one more bet when you do hit. Still nice hand, but I think you could have played it much better.

To put it simply: I allow him to bet the first draw for me, call, and c/r the second draw.
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Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw Empty Re: Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw

Post  Mondogarage on Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:12 am

I think I was carrying over ideas from pre-draw play, in error. You know, if you have a good two card draw with a deuce, don't just call, bet. So I bet. Which is what led to my 2nd draw bet...I got into a NHLE mindset which said I needed to do what appeared to be a c-bet to get some value, and not let him get a free card.

Of course, he didn't want another card, duh me.
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Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw Empty Re: Triple Draw Basics Part 2 - Before the First Draw

Post  PoWdA on Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:16 am

Mondogarage wrote:I think I was carrying over ideas from pre-draw play, in error. You know, if you have a good two card draw with a deuce, don't just call, bet. So I bet. Which is what led to my 2nd draw bet...I got into a NHLE mindset which said I needed to do what appeared to be a c-bet to get some value, and not let him get a free card.

Of course, he didn't want another card, duh me.
On the first draw we find out where we are because we now see how many cards our opponents is drawing. Now we bet depending on what our opponent is doing, not just on our cards but all of the information we have. Did we outdraw our opponent? Did we catch up? are we still way behind? YOu get all of this information when we see how many cards our opponent draws. Here he drew better than us so we check. Yes we improved but either way we can't be too far ahead yet and in fact could be way behind! Sure we could have the better draw at this point (which we surely do) but at the same time if he caught good and is pat now why bet our draw? If we drew 2 cards, he drew 1 and then we caught a pat hand go ahead and bet it but if we did catch a pat hand here a c/r would be better anyway so this is pretty much never a bet.

Do you see what I am saying though? It goes like this:

-If we drew less than him we bet wether we improved or not. (auto bet)

-If we drew more check/call if we improve to at least as many cards as our opponent.

-If we draw more than our opponent and fail to improve we check/fold almost all of the time.

-If we drew the same and did not improve check/call.

-If we drew the same and improved bet.

-If we drew more than our oponent and then caught that miracle pat hand check raise!


Here you drew more but improved. This is a check call situation. Betting here only gets us re-raised if he picks up a pat hand. Remember, we don't have a hand yet and nothing says we are going to catch that nice card on the second draw! Luckily this time you did!


Also: CAP THE POT!

lol

j/k

Hope this helps. Definetly post some more hands, start new threads for them though. Lets plug those leaks!
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