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Post  kkravec on Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:16 am

OK everyone…. What is it you’re looking for when you go play free bar poker? Are you going out just to have fun? Do you care about the rules? If they’re enforced?

I ask this because I’m almost out of tours to play because the owners are SO frustrating and I don’t want to give them business. I am the kind of patron they want - I run up a tab… I tip the dealers…

Here are a couple examples of what’s happened – please let me know you’re opinions. I may just expect too much from free bar poker.

Playing with AA88’s and one of the owners, Tim, is dealing. We are 3 handed, and he announces that blinds will be going up next hand. The guy in the big blind has been playing tight all night and has folded to almost every raise. I’m on the button and I look down at A/3. I go all in, knowing he will most likely fold and I can pick up the blinds. The small blind folds and the big blind is in the process of folding when Tim stops him, tells him he’s short and blinds are going up next hand. Tells him that it makes no sense that he fold b/c he’ll be all in this hand or the next hand and he might as well put it in this hand. So he calls and wins. I say to Tim that he can’t do that – stop a player from acting and tell him what to do. He says he can do whatever he wants.

Monday night we’re playing TPT. We’ve been trying a few bars with them lately and it seems like it’s a small cult that plays TPT, but that’s beside the point. We’re heads up and Rico is sitting behind the other player cheering him on saying what cards he needs when we’re both all in. The dealer is looking at his cards and making comments like “you can’t play that hand”. Now that was after he folded, but I still think that that’s pretty poor especially with the owner sitting there. The worst part was a hand where he min raised preflop and I called. I hit middle pair and go to move all in. I grabbed my stack and moved my hand forward about 2 inches (nothing touched the felt), realized I dropped a chip went and grabbed it and put my stack in. He picks up his stack, goes to put it in (hand goes to where he’d bet) but doesn’t drop it to the felt (his hand touched the felt, but the chips did not), and pulls it back. The ruling by Rico is that I couldn’t bet the single chip that I went back to get (a string bet), but that he didn’t have to call. Said I had forward motion and couldn’t get more chips to play. Said he didn’t drop his chips so it wasn’t a call. So here are 2 different rulings on different players on the same hand.

Total bar tab - $60. Total tip to dealer - $13. Chances of playing TPT again – 0%.

So now it looks like the one left is APT.


Last edited by kkravec on Fri May 02, 2008 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  dexman1349 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:57 am

I haven't played for a while, but when I did it was almost always with TPT. I typically played as an excuse to get out of the house and have a couple of beers. The TPT crowd is definately a small cult following, as I would see alot of the same players from bar to bar. I got to know a few of them and I used the experience as purely entertainment. The biggest downside to the "cult following" is that Rico and the dealers become friends with the regulars and have a tendency to help them without even knowing. If you had asked Rico, I'm sure he would have backed off.

For the most part the games are well run, but every once in a while I would have an issue - like the guy who mucked his cards after going all in on the flop and seeing what he was up against, then pulling his cars out when he caught runner-runner to win. No-one had seen his cards until after he retrieved them after the river. The biggest issues I had with the games were the pure donkish nature of the other players. Idiots calling an all in with a small pocket pair and several over-cards on the board, only to catch the 2 outer on the river. People calling any pre-flop raise just because the want to see the flop with their "lucky hand" (usually a 10-4, 7-2, or 6-9).

After a while I found I could experience the same donkish play online and I no-longer had to drive anywhere, so I quit playing bar poker. Same stupid play, much less expensive game, and more variety.

I guess *technically* Rico was right on the extra chip, unless you stated "All-in" before you pushed your chips out. Your verbal bet takes priority to the chips being placed. If you simply pushed the chips without saying anything, then yes it's a string bet. I've seen several people push all of their chips (except the one they were using as the card protector) without saying anything, only to realize after being beaten that they still have the one chip left. I would still say something to Rico if you ever encounter it again. Let him know that you don't appreciate him giving advice from the rail.
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Post  PoWdA on Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:58 am

The first situation pisses me off a ton. Whoever gave dealers (or anyone for that matter) the idea that they can at ANY TIME give ANY form of advice at the table is an idiot. NEVER and I mean NEVER is it acceptable for a dealer to give any form of advice ever. I see this far too often in bar poker. I also see delaers allowing players to bend the rules by helping eachother, peeking at eachothers cards, etc... Bar poker dealers are awful. I had quite a few players that would not sit at my table because I was firm on the rules but I had even more that always sat at my table because they knew I enforced every rule strictly, evenly, and most of all fairly. The absence of professionalism (sp?) that most (not all but most) bar poker dealers seem to have is one major reason I don't play bar poker. The fact that 95% of them don't know proper dealing form alone kills me. I understand there are no gaming regs in place but if there were about 98% of these guys would have thier liscences yanked and 1% of them woudl have to be pulled aside and told a few things. I don't think I have ever seen a bar poker dealer that is 100% correct, I have flaws as well but most are beyond awful from a true dealers standpoint.

I am at work and will try and comment on the Rico situation later.
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Post  kkravec on Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:50 am

I don’t (really) mind the donkey play you see in free bar poker. I think you kind of have to expect it. I can’t say I like it, but I understand it. You want that call every time; it just sucks when they suck out.

What pisses me off is how the company’s are being run. As owners can’t always control their dealers, they can control themselves. You would think they would want to grow their business – want to make new players feel comfortable and appreciated so they keep coming back. And bring a friend or two. When they are blatantly playing favorites it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, and there are other choices out there.

Technically he could be right (personally I think it wasn’t) that it was a string bet – it didn’t matter as 21k was “in” and 5k was left behind. That 5k was going in after the turn so I really didn’t care about the ruling. He just said for me it was forward motion. But for his buddy who had all his chips tucked in his hand and put his whole hand (with his chips) in the middle and set it there, it wasn’t. One rule for me and one for him. It just can’t be that way because the guy (and Rico) realized his bottom pair was no good.

I 100% agree with PoWdA and am a rules person. I would choose his table every time I played (you should go back to dealing). I just don’t know if I take it all too seriously and should re-look at how I view free bar poker. grrr….
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Post  Wetdog on Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:53 am

I play with AA88 a bit on the weekends. I'm surprised Tim was dealing, unless he had a dealer call in sick. As far as him saying he can do anything he wants, I believe he'd say that. He was out of line telling BB how/when to play.

Sometimes rules nits can be tedious, but I think you're on the right track here. And, $60 tab? Woooweee that's some drinking. $13 in dealer tips? Man, I'd like to be dealing where you play, if everyone tips that much.
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Post  idh78 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:09 pm

Bar poker is sofa king we todd did.

It's really dissapointing how little bar poker dealers know about rules or even simple etiquette for that matter. Dealers should NEVER ever interfere with the play....shit I even get pissed when dealers call out board textures....that is not their place....if someone can't see the cards or whatever then they can simply read Kh 10s 9h....they shouldn't ever say possible straight/flush....or even say "K 10 9 two hearts"

Dex as far as the mucked cards after an all in...if I were dealing I would have grabbed them and flipped them over myself.....in a heads up all-in situation both players cards should be turned face up prior to the next card being burned and turned.(tournaments only) so if he did this on the flop I wouldn't have brought the turn or river until his cards were retrieved and turned face up.

As far as Rico goes...I like the guy and used to deal for him twice....but I will say when I first started 95% of the dealers (and Rico) didn't have a clue about the rules....they were even dealing the button as the big blind when heads up....

kkravec hard to say what I would have ruled in that situation with out being there.....but most likely I would have not let you bet the extra chip unless you verbally declared you were all-in prior to reaching back for it....and I can't say on the other....it's a judgement call....I've seen many things like this ruled both ways....some places that have an actual bet line on table would have declared the other guy called because they state that any chip that crosses the line without a verbal declaration to be in the middle...you can't even do the old call by picking up a stack and dropping the number of chips needed on to the felt....(however I have personally seen people angle shooting because of this rule which is why I don't like the bet line)

now I'm sure you don't have a bet line in this instance so it's a discretionary call made by the dealer in my opinion......I have seen Todd Brunson do this exact thing you are discribing on HSP and it was not declared a call....personally I see it as a "balk" i.e. and attempt to deceive the other player and would more often than not say it is a call.


but to sum it all up....there really is no bar tour that is not going to have things like this come up....some will have it happen more than others....some will have a few good dealers, all will have some bad ones....bottom line though you should treat this more of as a night out at the bar, where they happen to be playing poker....not a poker night....trust me, the less you care about the actual results of the game the more you will enjoy it...honestly it is really the only way bar poker can be fun for me at all.

this also is why I really miss having a regular cheap poker night....where a bunch of people who want to play can do so for cheap ($20 or less) not pay for overpriced drinks, and be able to have a smoothly run game with little discrepancies.
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Post  Scrupboy on Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:11 pm

I highly agree with Danny on the first situation. A dealer should NEVER comment to a player, especially when a player was going to make one move and change their mind due to a dealer comment. I would have been extremely upset over this situation and the dealer would get an earful from me. Granted that this is his game, there is a certain amount of integrity that should be kept in the game of poker. This is also a reason that I don't play a lot of bar poker and home games. It is tough to keep the integrity of the game going unless it's in a licensed establishment. I started "up the hill" so integrity is very important to me when I play the game. Even online you notice people speaking of the hand they mucked while the hand is still in progress. I know that when I say something in a licensed game that a person will be warned or a dealer be reprimanded for not properly handling a situation.

As some of you may know, I used to deal bar poker. It was always very important to me on my table that the game was played as it was supposed to be played, with all rules intact. Actually, it drove me crazy to watch other dealers shuffle at times as many would not strip shuffle or show their bottom cards to half the table or not use a cut card and leave the bottom card exposed giving some with an advantage and others with a disadvantage, but I digress. My table and the dealers that were part of my games were always made aware of my rules being that of a licensed game. Even if it contradicted some of the "bar poker" rules, I needed to know that certain rules were followed.

It's tough when an owner of a game is watching over the game. The rule with Rico should have gone both ways and the other player, IMO, should have been in for the amount of chips that were pushed into the middle. Once the chips are pushed past a certain point they should be considered in the pot.

Just take bar poker for what it is, a form of entertainment. I play a few times a year and mainly to just drink it up and tell people their hole cards (make me look like a genius). If you want a real game, go up the hill and donk off some chips like I'll be doing on Saturday. Laughing
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Post  idh78 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:16 pm

how sad that it took a good bar poker discussion to jump start the site again Laughing Laughing Laughing

why don't we get Brian and Rico on here, and hey while we're at it, maybe some APT drama Razz (seriously though, let's please not)
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Post  Scrupboy on Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:18 pm

idh78 wrote:how sad that it took a good bar poker discussion to jump start the site again Laughing Laughing Laughing

why don't we get Brian and Rico on here, and hey while we're at it, maybe some APT drama Razz (seriously though, let's please not)
Worm! Razz Razz
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Post  dexman1349 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:42 pm

Booooo bar poker. I can see how it can be fun, and I did have fun early on, but it's just not for me anymore.

I think the reason I stopped playing was the same reason Ian was describing. I think I was expecting a better game, and it got to the point it was no longer fun. It also doesn't help that I have two young kids and a wife in school = no time off to leave the house. Between the milehighpoker.com game and the Horse game we do here, that's about all the live poker I need.
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Post  ak1971 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:47 pm

I play pretty regular bar poker at The Celtic in Parker. Its the old APT that runs that game. It seems to always be pretty well run, and the dealers for the most part know what they are doing, and control the game pretty well. I never play in any of the tours finals as a think its a waste of time..so I got the owner of the Celtic to piggy back off the tour. and run its own point system just within the bar, so something else to play for.
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Post  PoWdA on Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:56 pm

ak1971 wrote: I never play in any of the tours finals as a think its a waste of time..
Yeah the last time I played bar poker was greenfields on the 6th, I took it down, and gave the cert to second cuz she cared.

I remember back in the day going to DPT finals maxed out and never making it too far as all those games were were minefields. I don't play the finals either, now I only play (rareley) to either meet up with old friends or go have a beer.
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Post  idh78 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:29 pm

PoWdA wrote:now I only play (rareley) to either meet up with old friends or go have a beer.

2nd that.

it's kinda like going chubby chasing, if you keep your expectations super low, how can you be dissapointed??
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Post  dexman1349 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:30 pm

idh78 wrote: if you keep your expectations super low, how can you be dissapointed??

That explains alot, Ian. Razz
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Post  Steelerz99 on Tue May 06, 2008 1:14 pm

I agree w/most of the comments. Free poker can be irritating but it's a lot of fun on the nights when your game is rolling and your picking off the scrubs. APT is a pretty good tour and when I play at the Celtic it is fairly smooth w/little dealer interference. The only thing that gets tedious is playing against the same players all the time so you need to change up your game now and again. It also keeps the game fresh. What's better is getting to know some pretty cool peeps and getting cash games together from time to time. That's where free poker pays off in my opinion.
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Post  PoWdA on Tue May 06, 2008 1:17 pm

Steelerz99 wrote:I agree w/most of the comments. Free poker can be irritating but it's a lot of fun on the nights when your game is rolling and your picking off the scrubs. APT is a pretty good tour and when I play at the Celtic it is fairly smooth w/little dealer interference. The only thing that gets tedious is playing against the same players all the time so you need to change up your game now and again. It also keeps the game fresh. What's better is getting to know some pretty cool peeps and getting cash games together from time to time. That's where free poker pays off in my opinion.
hey welcome to the site! I assume you know degenerates Andy and Ian if you are playing the celtic no?

Anyway I have made countless friends through bar poker, I must admit that, as I couldn't help it as a dealer. Countless degenerate, scary, awful friends Very Happy

Anyway welcome aboard!
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Post  dexman1349 on Tue May 06, 2008 1:23 pm

PoWdA wrote: hey welcome to the site! I assume you know degenerates Andy and Ian if you are playing the celtic no?

Anyway I have made countless friends through bar poker, I must admit that, as I couldn't help it as a dealer. Countless degenerate, scary, awful friends Very Happy

Anyway welcome aboard!

x2. Danny even picked up friends that wanted to stab him and threatened to do so on multiple occations. Razz

BTW Danny, if you suck out on me on Friday..... you know where I keep my knife... Laughing
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Post  PoWdA on Tue May 06, 2008 1:29 pm

Yeah I just thought about it... If anyone ever asks about anything interesting that happened to me while dealing I can tell them "a guy pulled a knife on me." When they ask what happened I can literally say "we are buddies now." Laughing

Awesome.
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Post  dexman1349 on Tue May 06, 2008 1:30 pm

PoWdA wrote:Yeah I just thought about it... If anyone ever asks about anything interesting that happened to me while dealing I can tell them "a guy pulled a knife on me." When they ask what happened I can literally say "we are buddies now." Laughing

Awesome.

Indeed. You can even say that I offered a bed to you and your girl while your kid was sick. cheers
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Post  Scrupboy on Tue May 06, 2008 1:37 pm

PoWdA wrote:Anyway I have made countless friends through bar poker, I must admit that, as I couldn't help it as a dealer. Countless degenerate, scary, awful friends Very Happy
I even met Danny while I was dealing bar poker... can we move this to the bad beat section? Razz Razz
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Post  Mondogarage on Tue May 06, 2008 2:11 pm

Scrupboy wrote:
I even met Danny while I was dealing bar poker... can we move this to the bad beat section? Razz Razz

Yup, and Danny and Son's illegitimate love child has been hanging out at TJ's Wash Park ever since. Laughing
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Post  PoWdA on Tue May 06, 2008 2:14 pm

Mondogarage wrote:
Scrupboy wrote:
I even met Danny while I was dealing bar poker... can we move this to the bad beat section? Razz Razz

Yup, and Danny and Son's illegitimate love child has been hanging out at TJ's Wash Park ever since. Laughing
For the record I got TJ's for The Poker Tour before they decided to switch to DPT. I believe I was actaully dealing there when Keith pulled the knife on me Laughing
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Post  dexman1349 on Tue May 06, 2008 4:45 pm

PoWdA wrote:
Mondogarage wrote:
Scrupboy wrote:
I even met Danny while I was dealing bar poker... can we move this to the bad beat section? Razz Razz

Yup, and Danny and Son's illegitimate love child has been hanging out at TJ's Wash Park ever since. Laughing
For the record I got TJ's for The Poker Tour before they decided to switch to DPT. I believe I was actaully dealing there when Keith pulled the knife on me Laughing

No, the first time I pulled the knife on you was at Blondies before that game got shut down. But I think I may have pulled it on you when you played TJ's though.

TJ's was a pretty good game while TPT had it. I haven't played it since TPT stopped dealing there. The only two places I might play are both TPT events: Monday nights at Gibby's (~Havanna & Mississippi), or Milo's on Tuesdays (~Evans & Monaco)
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Post  Mondogarage on Tue May 06, 2008 5:23 pm

I actually played DPT at TJ's about 2-3 weeks back (before my self-imposed exile from bar poker, possibly permanent).

Anyway, the play quality there was what you'd expect, but a bit more on the decent side. But they only ran one table, and it took forever to sit down. There were something like 33 names on the list, and only 19 players showed. And, of course, the unused-2nd table dealer got to cut in front of everyone on the wait list, which is always garbage in my book.

In theory, I like bar poker. Most of the people I've come to know in Longmont, I met them via bar poker. But I can no longer deal with fighting through 20-week seasons, and several hours to get to the final seven spots of their end-of-season championship, only to have someone call off 1/3 of their stack to a pf call and shove with 86, just because they want to gambooool it up.

If I wanted to play donkeyfucker style, I can stay home and do it more profitably online, and in my underwear while watching a Rockies game. affraid
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Post  idh78 on Tue May 06, 2008 5:39 pm

dexman1349 wrote: The only two places I might play are both TPT events: Monday nights at Gibby's (~Havanna & Mississippi), or Milo's on Tuesdays (~Evans & Monaco)

I think they lost Gibby's to either DPT or their own in house game...
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