When to rr with a wheel (Stud 8)

PokerStars Game #22161613209: 8-Game (7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit, $1/$2) - 2008/11/18 19:42:22 ET
Table 'Khryses II' 6-max
Seat 1: lawdogusc ($48.95 in chips)
Seat 2: Jonnyic ($85 in chips)
Seat 3: FloppyMcNutZ ($50 in chips)
Seat 4: ClayBay ($51.40 in chips)
Seat 5: muckDATcrap ($75.75 in chips)
Seat 6: betgo ($22 in chips)
FloppyMcNutZ: posts the ante $0.20
ClayBay: posts the ante $0.20
muckDATcrap: posts the ante $0.20
betgo: posts the ante $0.20
lawdogusc: posts the ante $0.20
Jonnyic: posts the ante $0.20
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to lawdogusc [Tc]
Dealt to Jonnyic [Ah]
Dealt to FloppyMcNutZ [Ac 5d 2s]
Dealt to ClayBay [Ks]
Dealt to muckDATcrap [8h]
Dealt to betgo [4c]
FloppyMcNutZ: brings in for $0.30
ClayBay: raises $0.70 to $1
muckDATcrap: folds
betgo: folds
lawdogusc: folds
Jonnyic: calls $1
FloppyMcNutZ: calls $0.70
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to Jonnyic [Ah] [Kc]
Dealt to FloppyMcNutZ [Ac 5d 2s] [3c]
Dealt to ClayBay [Ks] [7d]
Jonnyic: checks
FloppyMcNutZ: bets $1
ClayBay: raises $1 to $2
Jonnyic: calls $2
FloppyMcNutZ: raises $1 to $3
Should I have waited until 5th and cr'd?
ClayBay: calls $1
Jonnyic: calls $1
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to Jonnyic [Ah Kc] [2c]
Dealt to FloppyMcNutZ [Ac 5d 2s 3c] [4s]
Dealt to ClayBay [Ks 7d] [4d]
Jonnyic: checks
FloppyMcNutZ: bets $2
ClayBay: calls $2
Jonnyic: folds
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to FloppyMcNutZ [Ac 5d 2s 3c 4s] [Jh]
Dealt to ClayBay [Ks 7d 4d] [5c]
ClayBay: checks
FloppyMcNutZ: bets $2
ClayBay: calls $2
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to FloppyMcNutZ [Ac 5d 2s 3c 4s Jh] [9s]
ClayBay: bets $2
FloppyMcNutZ: raises $2 to $4
ClayBay: calls $2
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FloppyMcNutZ: shows [Ac 5d 2s 3c 4s Jh 9s] (HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,A)
ClayBay: mucks hand
FloppyMcNutZ collected $13.90 from pot
FloppyMcNutZ collected $13.90 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $29.20 | Rake $1.40
Seat 1: lawdogusc folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Jonnyic folded on the 5th Street
Seat 3: FloppyMcNutZ showed [Ac 5d 2s 3c 4s Jh 9s] and won ($27.80) with HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,A
Seat 4: ClayBay mucked [Jd Kh Ks 7d 4d 5c 5h]
Seat 5: muckDATcrap folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 6: betgo folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)

I think 5th street may have netted you more money. With limit it's always best to check raise at the higher betting limit. Of course it can always backfire and your opponent checks behind. Depends on how tricky your opponent is as I sometimes bet during the lower limit betting to try any get an opponent off a hand or at least widdle down the field, then check once the betting limit increases. Check raising where you did at least builtup the pot and you were still drawing so I also see your play as fine. Gamble, gamble.

Disclaimer - I suck at Stud 8.

But, when I have what appears to be a lock for the low, or a strong draw to a lock for the low (we're talking four cards to a 6 high by 4th or 5th, for the most part), I like to bet or raise at every opportunity, even at the possible expense of missing out on a check-raise opportunity on a later street.

Why? A couple of reasons....

1) In most cases, you're assured a half pot, so you want to build the pot as much as you can.
2) You can possibly chase out someone who's drawing to a higher hand, but could still backdoor a better low.
3) No free cards, especially if you have a wheel. Better to scoop a smaller pot by 6th street than have someone backdoor a flush on 6th and 7th. I want opponents to pay for their marginal draws.
4) If someone's got a boat by then, they're surely going to raise, and you can still get a re-raise in if anyone else is still playing for a high.

The disclaimer stands, though.

4) If someone's got a boat by then, they're surely going to raise, and you can still get a re-raise in if anyone else is still playing for a high.

Someone may also be playing for a low. If I have the lock low, I'm jamming and squeezing someone in the middle, hopefully more than one. With a probable scoop, nobody gets off cheap.

I really suck at all Stud games, but I like to comment as it makes me think about the game more.

I think you played it correctly. Your raise on 4th got called by 2 players. If you smooth there then thats 2$ less in the pot by 5th street. When it is checked to you if you check hoping to induce a bet from ClayBay the only way this is profitable is if Jonnyic calls ClayBays bet, which we can pretty much say he wouldn't since he folded on 5th with better pot odds than he would get had you 'slowplayed' fourth. Since we know Jonnyic is folding to a bet on 5th then a check raise is essentially break even........and thats only if its successful.

Sorry about the poor writing, but I hope it makes sense.

SnowOcean wrote:I really suck at all Stud games, but I like to comment as it makes me think about the game more.

I think you played it correctly. Your raise on 4th got called by 2 players. If you smooth there then thats 2$ less in the pot by 5th street. When it is checked to you if you check hoping to induce a bet from ClayBay the only way this is profitable is if Jonnyic calls ClayBays bet, which we can pretty much say he wouldn't since he folded on 5th with better pot odds than he would get had you 'slowplayed' fourth. Since we know Jonnyic is folding to a bet on 5th then a check raise is essentially break even........and thats only if its successful.

Sorry about the poor writing, but I hope it makes sense.

Hi, Snow. I think you're doing what's called results oriented thinking. If Danny had frozen the action at 4th street you may think this differently. I think it's about the reads he may have on the villains. Will they call one more (they've already put in 2 SB on 4th), fold to pressure, try to continue drawing? Would they be as likely to do so on 5th? That was Danny's question. Your conclusion, which I bolded above, is that we know this on 4th street. At game speed we can only act on information we have, not what we will have.

thats funny you mention that......just listened to an interview last week where Gavin Smith laid into Ali Nejad prety hard about being too results oriented. Definately valid point that may explain why I struggle getting to the next level....whatever that is.